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essexguy1234 wrote:

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Stephen,

I am from the UK and we are not liable to pay tax on winnings from poker.

I am not sure what you mean by the statement 'because it is way too easy for someone to have dozens of these "poker trackings" and only present publicly the few that are winners. The poker tracking software is an independent website that tracks all players' results by their registered screen name, as sites such as Pokerstars and FullTilt. You are only allowed to have one screen name at a particular poker site otherwise they will close your account. If you want to hide your results you have to personally email officialpoerrankings because they track your results automatically. Therefore, it is not one particular player presenting results saying 'look at me, I am a winning player'. It is just the results that are recorded automatically.

I know for a fact that a very good friend of mine has played tournament poker for the past 6 years and has consistently made a living from this. This diminishes your credibility. I am not sure why you hate poker sites so much and I do not know whether you truly believe what you're saying. With all the posts you put up here, the book you have written. The sites you have written on over the years about this etc, seriously makes me wonder why you are doing this. It seems like there is more to this than just you making money.

If you were correct about this (which I know for 100% sure you're not) poker would have been debunked a long time ago. So would trading the stock market. Poker and trading are negative sum games but as long as you are good enough and more importantly disciplined enough, you can beat the game.

The fact that you are so ipso facto that poker is impossible to beat while not coming up with any proof whatsoever, added to the fact that I know people who have consistently beat the game, shows that you have serious issues. I know you're an ex gambler with a problem, just admit the problem is yourself, and the other degenerate gamblers, not poker.

Alexdb wrote:

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phillysteve wrote:

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So Michael - You got your response from me...Now come up with something new and better than regurgitated ideas that have already been thoroughly discussed here, or they'll be no further response from me.

Stephen Katz

Hi Stephen, I'd like to invite you and your readers to take a look at my blog; http://blogs.cardrunners.com/alexdb . It describes some of the day-to-day experiences of playing poker full-time as my sole source of income, as well as some pieces of information that could help readers improve their games.

I'm sure you realise that properly documented proof of winnings, audited by an accountant, are very unlikely to be produced. The primary reason for this is that in the UK poker winnings are not taxable, there is no correct place to even enter the detail on a tax return, and nobody would pay to have their personal accounts audited in order to please the readers of an internet forum.

I understand that you are aiming to sell a book that explains that poker cannot be beaten, so I think I could make an interesting proposition. I'd be prepared to make a 5-figure bet with you that I am beating online poker, and that I quit traditional work to play full time a year ago with negligible other sources of income, as my blog describes.

If you can make the bet and arrange and finance some sort of independent verification/auditing from a credible company then I'd be happy to let them access the necessary details. If it turns out that my claim is untrue, then as well as winning a nice sum of money (that you could, say, donate to gambling charities) you would have an excellent marketing claim/publicity stunt to raise awareness; it would show that you believed in what you were saying and could spectacularly prove wrong some of your opponents, as well as implying that we gamblers make reckless and losing betting-decisions.

Misinformation, abstinence, and prohibition aren't the way to overcome personal weaknesses; they represent a submission to them. Informed responsible participation is a real victory.

Regards

Alex

essexguy1234 wrote:

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Stephen

As I have said, it is not the players who publicly post their results. It is officialpokerrankings who track players results by their screenname. If you open an account with FT or Stars yours too will be tracked. Therefore, it shows the screen names/ accounts who are winning and losing. It is as simple as that. Nobody is submitting results and hiding others. It is websites which have nothing to do with the players that are posting the results.

You can't worm your way out of this one. You have easily been debunked and exposed.

Michael

Phil wrote:

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phillysteve wrote:

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essexguy1234 wrote:

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Stephen,

I am from the UK and we are not liable to pay tax on winnings from poker.

I am not sure what you mean by the statement 'because it is way too easy for someone to have dozens of these "poker trackings" and only present publicly the few that are winners. The poker tracking software is an independent website that tracks all players' results by their registered screen name, as sites such as Pokerstars and FullTilt. You are only allowed to have one screen name at a particular poker site otherwise they will close your account. If you want to hide your results you have to personally email officialpoerrankings because they track your results automatically. Therefore, it is not one particular player presenting results saying 'look at me, I am a winning player'. It is just the results that are recorded automatically.

I know for a fact that a very good friend of mine has played tournament poker for the past 6 years and has consistently made a living from this. This diminishes your credibility. I am not sure why you hate poker sites so much and I do not know whether you truly believe what you're saying. With all the posts you put up here, the book you have written. The sites you have written on over the years about this etc, seriously makes me wonder why you are doing this. It seems like there is more to this than just you making money.

If you were correct about this (which I know for 100% sure you're not) poker would have been debunked a long time ago. So would trading the stock market. Poker and trading are negative sum games but as long as you are good enough and more importantly disciplined enough, you can beat the game.

The fact that you are so ipso facto that poker is impossible to beat while not coming up with any proof whatsoever, added to the fact that I know people who have consistently beat the game, shows that you have serious issues. I know you're an ex gambler with a problem, just admit the problem is yourself, and the other degenerate gamblers, not poker.

It's not up to me to "disprove" anything you say - It is up to you to properly prove your claims and as I stated, anyone can have many multiple poker tracking hand histories, dozens of them, many dozens of them, and only publicly provide the ones that are winners.

It's simple really - if playing in enough online tournaments, sooner or later any gambler will likely win one...that doesn't at all mean they are a profitable online poker player. I think this is crystal clear and very easy to understand.

The point is it's not the player providing his tracked hand histories, it's the many sites that track every hand, played by every player that's ever played online. These sites are not selective, they datamine poker sites and track every hand. If a player loses $50 they know about it, if they win $50 they know about it. They know about and track every hand played and how much was won/lost.

There are many losing players online but there are also winning players. The top online cash game players are tracked by these sites over hundreds of thousands of hands and some of them are big winners year after year (in the $millions)

You seem to be under the impression it is the players providing the hand histories to these sites, however it is the site data mininig every hand played online.

Check out the stats for one of the top online cash game players, tracked independently by this site. He's up $7,641,889.40 over the last 61,151 hands

http://www.pokertableratings.com/overview/durrrr

Phil wrote:

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phillysteve wrote:

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I could shoot a hundred holes in what you just stated...maybe more than a hundred...suffice to say all I'm asking for is the proof I asked for, which if it existed, would be so easy and quick to post, and should already be available at many websites considering all the winning claims out there. I shouldn't have to ask for it - anyone claiming publicly to be making money playing online poker and especially as an enducement to signup players on their affiliate commission program, so that in theory the affiliate commission member could help their customers win money...that affiliate commission member should be more than willing to provide documented and audited proof of their claims, and not the facade of poker hand tracking histories.

Just do it...or post a link to a blog that has documented and audited proof of winnings.

OK, these sites that track wins/losses have nothing to do with the poker sites or poker players. Try if yourself, sit down and lose $50 online and then type your poker alias into one of the many tracking sites and you will see it reports you are a $50 loser.

As for audited proof, how am I supposed to get audited proof? The best I can do is stats provided by sites that track millions of players wins/loses accurately.

You seem to be in some kind of denial that there are winning players. If your better than average at poker then you will be a winning player, it's that simple. Of course there is rake, but when that rake is capped at $3 (regardless of pot size) it becomes less relevant the higher in stakes you play. It become irrelevant at the highest levels where the average pot can be $10,000+

Phil wrote:

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phillysteve wrote:

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Phil wrote:

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Some more winning players tracked by High Stakes DB (nothing to do with players posting hand histories):

Durrrr, in the whole of 2008 up over $5 million http://www.highstakesdb.c...tistics/2008/durrrr.aspx

Phil Ivey in the whole of 2008 up nearly $9 million http://www.highstakesdb.c...cs/2008/Phil%20Ivey.aspx

Urindanger in the whole of 2008 up $3.5 million http://www.highstakesdb.c...ics/2008/Urindanger.aspx

<<< Phil Ivey in the whole of 2008 >>>

Phil Ivey doesn't play raked poker on gambling websites - Come on now, you should already know this.

Phil Ivey gets paid to play at gambling websites and plays rake free. Phil Ivey gets endorsement money from gambling websites and sometimes if not often gets his tournament buy-in fees paid for by gambling websites.

There is no doubt that Phil Ivey is an excellent poker player, but if he was playing like normal players on gambling websites against the rake, with pots averaging less than around $1,000, he would be a long term loser.

In very high stakes poker which Ivey plays, the negative impact of the rake may not get felt by a bankroll for a long time, but there is an impact. but let's stop with the comparisons of Phil Ivey with 99.999% of the regular players on gambling websites who play in average pots of $1,000 or less - none of them are winning long term at raked poker - none of them!

A big claim but you have no proof of this.

The profits that are tracked by high stakes db for Phil Ivey do actually have the rake removed from them. You are correct that Phil Ivey is a sponsored player but he is still beating online poker and the other 2 players started out at low stakes and built their bankroll. At least you've admitted that winning over the long term is possible even though you only think it's possible at higher stakes.

Another good poker player you might know Chris Ferguson did a bankroll challange online. Where he turned nothing into $10,000 starting at the lowest limits, so it can be done:

Here's the details: http://www.fulltiltpoker....chris-ferguson-challenge

Starting with nothing but a Full Tilt Poker account, Chris played in Freerolls until he earned enough to graduate to games with real-money buy-ins. From that point on, he adhered to a strict set of guidelines to build up his bankroll:

• He never bought into a cash game or a Sit & Go for more than 5 percent of his total bankroll; the only exception was at the lowest limits: he was allowed to buy into any game with a buy-in of $2.50 or less
• He didn't buy into any multi-table tournaments for more than 2 percent of his total bankroll; the only exception was $1 MTTs
• If at any time during a No-Limit or Pot-Limit cash-game session the money on the table represented more than 10 percent of his total bankroll, he had to leave the game when the blinds reached him

Getting started wasn't easy. In fact, it took more than seven months of steady play until he got his bankroll to stabilize at about $6.50. Undaunted, Chris maintained his discipline and dedication and continued with his challenge. Then, on November 26th, 2006, Chris made a major breakthrough. He turned a $1 tournament buy-in into $104 in prize money when he finished second in a 683-player tournament. Even with that huge bankroll boost, it still took Chris nine more months of hard work to reach $10K. But because he strictly adhered to the bankroll management strategy that he'd set for himself, Chris achieved his goal the following September.